Ep.7: "What's Law Got To Do With It?" w/guest Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook

Attorney and State Representative Anne Allen Westbrook joins us to discuss the importance of the rule of law in our system of government. What happens when the law is disregarded? 

summary

In this episode of Georgia House Rules, Representatives Karen Lupton and Anne Allen Westbrook discuss their experiences in the Georgia State Legislature, focusing on community engagement, the importance of the rule of law, and the challenges posed by executive power. They delve into issues such as immigration, healthcare legislation, and the role of media in shaping public perception. The conversation underscores the importance of accountability among political leaders and the cyclical nature of democracy, highlighting the need for vigilance in upholding democratic principles.

takeaways

• Karen Lupton and Anne Allen Westbrook are colleagues in the Georgia State Legislature.
• Both representatives emphasize the importance of community engagement post-session.
• They discuss the challenges of legal representation and due process in the current political climate.
• The conversation highlights the role of state legislators in addressing national issues.
• Separation of powers is a critical theme in their discussion of executive overreach.
• They express concern over the retreat of democracy and the rule of law.
• Local healthcare decisions are being influenced by executive orders.
• They stress the importance of using their platform to advocate for constituents.
• The focus on gender and healthcare issues has been prominent in recent legislative sessions. The motivation to protect women and girls is paramount.
• Local political dynamics significantly influence legislative priorities.
• The Republican Party's shift reflects broader national trends.
• Voting against unreasonable bills is a challenge for integrity.
• Bipartisanship is essential for addressing urgent issues.
• Governance should focus on substantive matters, not political theater.
• Affordable housing is a critical issue needing legislative attention.
• The rule of law is under threat at both state and national levels.
• Historical patterns can inform current political strategies.
• Civic engagement is crucial for maintaining democratic values.

Thank you for listening!

Transcript

Karen Lupton (00:01)
This is your State House Representative Karen Lupton here today with one of my great colleagues, Representative Anne Allen Westbrook, who represents the Savannah area.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (00:15)
That's right, that's right. It's so good to see you, Lupton. Yes, I represent Savannah and Garden City, Vernonburg and part of unincorporated Chatham County. So my district is all Savannah area.

Karen Lupton (00:31)
And you came into the State House in 2022, the same year I did.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (00:36)
That's right. came in together and I think we actually met a little before that when we were both in the Wind Leadership Academy before you ran for city council. So I've been a Karen Lupton fan and newsletter subscriber for a long time before we became colleagues. Yeah.

Karen Lupton (00:47)
Yes!

⁓ whoa. that's taken us back. Wow, that's taken us back. I forgot

that you were one of the many women that we now get to serve with who has come through WinList.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (01:04)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Karen Lupton (01:06)
Great, great

women, great organization. ⁓ thank you for remembering that. That's right.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (01:09)
Yes.

Yeah. And we were

part of just a huge class of women who were inspired to run soon after the first Trump administration started. Yeah.

Karen Lupton (01:26)
Yes, Gwynn List, class of 2017. Couldn't get me there fast enough.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (01:29)
Mm-hmm, that's right.

It's true. It's true.

Karen Lupton (01:36)
And I'm

so glad that now we're colleagues. We have, and by we, I mean the Georgia State Legislature, we have finished our required work on April 4th of earlier this year. And we have all kind of retired to our separate districts to do the work that is important to us in our own districts and to keep things that are important to us in the public.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (01:39)
Yes.

Karen Lupton (02:06)
I.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (02:07)
Absolutely, absolutely. You're joining from the Capitol. We were laughing about the ⁓ trademark magenta blinds. I'm joining from my home, because when Session gets out, I don't spend a ton of time in Atlanta when we're in the off season. I'm mostly here in Savannah.

Karen Lupton (02:29)
People ask me all the time and I'm sure they ask you too, well what do you have to do? You know, after a is done, well what do you have to do? And I tell them like, nothing, technically.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (02:42)
Right, right. Technically, yes, this this part time job we technically don't have. Well, we don't have as much to do, but I'm sure you have lots to do in your district just like I do. And we get back to all the other parts of our lives as well.

Karen Lupton (02:59)
And what have you been up to lately out there in your district?

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (03:03)
Well, know, constituent services and getting back to neighborhood meetings and I've got a town hall with my colleague Rep Edna Jackson and Senator Derek Malo tonight. So it's our first town hall since we've been back from session. So we're hoping for a good turnout and we, usually have good engaged ⁓ folks who come to these town halls with great questions. So we're looking forward to it.

Karen Lupton (03:32)
That's wonderful. I'm so glad to know that you have a good ⁓ turnout for your kind post-session events.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (03:40)
We do, we do. We usually do a few. My district is almost entirely within Senator Malo's district and it sort of hugs Rep Jackson's district. we, you know, we're kind of right next to each other. So we try to get around to different parts of the district and, you know, make it easy for folks to get to us. And ⁓ so we will be at the sentient bean coffee shop tonight and

Yeah, we're hoping for a great turnout and folks are fired up. So we'll see.

Karen Lupton (04:16)
That's super. I'm really glad to hear it. The sentient bean. I love that. I've got to get a coffee shop around me that stays open. I live in Shambly near Metro Atlanta, and we have several great coffee shops, none of which stay open past three o'clock in the afternoon. ⁓

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (04:21)
Yes.

Okay, yeah, that's

definitely one of the coffee shop models. This particular coffee shop is open late and they host a lot of events. so, you know, they have their busy kind of Saturday morning farmers market crowd, and then they also host open mic nights for young musicians. They'll host a town hall. During the 2022 election cycle, they hosted a candidate forum. they're just, yeah, they're a great...

Karen Lupton (05:03)
nice.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (05:06)
business for supporting just providing a public meeting space for folks.

Karen Lupton (05:13)
that's great. I'm thrilled to hear that. I love those sort of places that have that local feel and really kind of dig into what's happening in their community and provide that kind of resource to their people. So you have recently written an op-ed. ⁓ Tell me a little bit about why you wrote it and what it's about.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (05:22)
Absolutely.

Sure. ⁓ Well, you know, we were in session through April 4th. And as everyone, all your Georgia House rules, watchers and listeners know that session's intense. And so when we're in session, we are really focused for 40 days on everything Georgia. It's very Georgia centric. We're talking about our budget and issues that really matter specific to Georgians.

And, you know, I got home, I got a little rest and I'm a lawyer, married to a lawyer. I'm the daughter of a lawyer. So we talk about the law a lot in my household. And I came home to a news cycle of...

the Trump administration cracking down on universities, on their academic freedom, cracking down on large law firms, ⁓ law firms like Skadden Arps and Perkins Coy, who had taken on clients and cases in the past that the president didn't like. Now, certainly the president is free to like and dislike whatever, just as we all are.

But that's a pretty bedrock principle that law firms get to take on clients and should take on clients, even if they are unpopular in the eyes of the powerful. Take on the little guys sometimes, take on the big guys sometimes. But it's really this bedrock principle that everybody that walks into a courtroom should have representation of their choice. And what we saw from the administration was

you know, a desire to really punish law firms that, you know, took on clients and causes it didn't approve of, whether that was former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. I think some of the investigations of the past administration were a part of this. So that's kind of what I came back to. And then very soon after that, you know, we started seeing headlines of ⁓

folks being sent abroad without due process, being not just deported, because to be deported really just means you're sent back to maybe your home country. But we saw more than 200 individuals sent to El Salvador to a prison. the reasons for this, normally due process means you get notice in a hearing, you get your day in court.

And if the government has ⁓ a case against you, they have to prove it. You know, they're put to that strict proof. And what we heard about these 200 individuals, where they had tattoos that ⁓ the Trump administration decided signified membership in a gang. Again, if that's true, you should be very willing to go to court and prove that. And that didn't happen here.

We saw the case of Kilmar Arbrega Garcia who had legal status to be in the United States. In fact, he had status that specifically prohibited his being returned to El Salvador because it had been administratively determined that he was unsafe being returned to El Salvador.

We don't know what kind of guy he is and really it doesn't matter. We know he had legal status to be in the US. He's the father of US citizen children. And he was returned to a country that he was specifically prohibited from being returned to and he was sent to a prison. ⁓ So those are some of the factual scenarios that we saw. We also saw court orders from federal district judges and from the US Supreme Court.

⁓ basically saying you, Trump administration have to afford these individuals their rights under the law. And the Trump administration basically said, well, we're not going to do it. So that's kind of what got me really concerned. And, you know, I'm just a state legislator. This isn't necessarily my purview, but one of the

One of the things that we do have as state legislators is we have a little bit of a platform. We've got all the same platform that citizens have, but we also have this platform as state legislators. We get a little more attention from the media and a little more willingness for folks to listen to what we have to say. And it was really on my conscience to speak up on this matter.

Karen Lupton (10:17)
Yes.

Yes, the rule of law, ⁓ several of us legislators were on a call the other week with that representative Michelle Al put together with someone who used to work ⁓ and work in the government helping the Department of Justice, the DOJ ⁓ interpret law, kind of internally in the federal government. And

He is very concerned, as we all should be, about sort of this flaunting of the breakdown and the separation of powers and the Trump's administration's just flat out refusal to comply with legal standards and rulings from the Supreme Court and just saying, ⁓ make me.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (11:10)
Absolutely.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this, this separation of powers issue, and that was, that was that concept figured prominently in my, in my op ed. You know, this is real sixth grade civics kind of stuff. You don't have to be a lawyer to understand how important this is that we are a democracy, ⁓ small D.

Yes, we are a constitutional republic, but generally we use that phrase interchangeably with democracy, meaning we govern ourselves. And in the U S our constitutional model is three separate co-equal branches of government. If any one gets a little too powerful, the role of the other two is to check that branch. And what we see happening with the executive branch under Trump 2.0.

Karen Lupton (12:14)
Yes.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (12:19)
is an executive branch that is ⁓ grabbing more power, consolidating more power in this one branch and essentially saying to the other two what you just said, make me. ⁓ So I think we have seen with one party control of the US Congress, we've seen a real... ⁓

Reluctance is too weak a word, but an unwillingness, an unwillingness by that branch to perform their constitutional duty of checking the executive branch. ⁓ So that kind of leaves the judiciary and they have, you know, we could have an argument about whether they've been strong enough, but they've certainly at least issued these orders that clarify you are overstepping the power that you have as an executive branch.

Karen Lupton (12:46)
It is.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (13:13)
with these actions. To get back to some of these big law firms, they were really bringing up First Amendment arguments, among other things, and saying the executive branch is chilling our ability to speak and we have the right to speak. And some of them pushed back and said, no, we're not going to just settle with you and do the thing you want us to do.

we're going to fight back in court and they're winning, which is great. But the thing that the, the, but, but the, but is that that several law firms have said, no, we can't take that risk. It's too, it's too great a risk to, ⁓ to our organization, to our employees. We can't be barred from federal buildings.

Karen Lupton (13:50)
Here it comes, the butt.

Mmm...

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (14:08)
because federal buildings are where we make our living and where we represent our clients. And so while some have pushed back and they're winning in court, and I think they're seeing a grateful ⁓ America that is wanting to hire them and represent them, for every other one, there are some who have basically allowed this executive branch to go ahead and chill their speech. ⁓ And so that's deeply concerning.

⁓ So yeah, that's just kind of one way this has played out. But the separation of powers piece of this is enormous and we all have a stake in that. And so that's why I wanted to write this op-ed.

Karen Lupton (14:52)
And who picked it up in your area? you gotten good response from it?

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (14:57)
I have, it was picked up by an independent journalist here who runs an independent media organization called Savannah Agenda. This is the product of Eric Curl, who was a reporter for the Savannah Morning News and went out on his own. he does, you know, we could have a whole other podcast and maybe there are people better equipped to speak to it than I, but we could have a whole other podcast about our information environment that we're operating in.

Karen Lupton (15:25)
Ugh.

Ugh. And it's a truth.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (15:26)
And

the role that the press plays in preserving this democracy that we have. But this is a journalist who started this publication and does all kinds of excellent work on unsexy topics like ⁓ zoning and property and things that are dear to your former city councilwoman heart, I'm sure.

Karen Lupton (15:54)
⁓

the municipal work.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (15:56)
Exactly. So it does really great work, but this was something that was really on my conscience and I wanted to get it out. And so I was grateful to Savannah Agenda for helping me expand my platform a little more and get it out more broadly.

Karen Lupton (16:12)
⁓ Have you been contacted personally about people reacting to what you wrote?

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (16:19)
Absolutely. Absolutely. I I am a part of the legal community here in Savannah, and I know that there are other folks who are a part of that community, really, you know, and that's not limited to partisan affiliation. There are folks that are really, they're concerned about this. They're watching all of these developments with alarm. It's, you know, we are seeing a global retreat from democracy right now.

Karen Lupton (16:47)
Yes.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (16:47)
And

these are dynamics and trends that are playing out a lot of places. And again, there are smarter people than I who could opine on why that is. But we're seeing democracy in retreat a lot of places. And so here in the US, it's of great concern to folks when they see ⁓ this flouting of the rule of law, flouting of

district court judges in the Supreme Court trying to rein in this executive branch.

Karen Lupton (17:22)
It's so interesting when you were talking about the different law firms that some are standing up to orders that have chilled their free speech. Some are saying, we can't really afford to push back that hard. This is how we make our living. The new Arthur blank.

branch of Children's Healthcare of Atlanta is in my district. And they recently told parents of kids who are receiving gender affirming care that they're not going to be giving that care anymore. Even though, and they cite the Trump administration's executive order, even though that executive order is being challenged in court right now and is not necessarily enforceable.

they are preemptively kind of caving. But they also, unfortunately, are able to point to Georgia law that is stifling medical ⁓ facilities' ability to give gender-affirming care to children. ⁓ And this sort of

preemptive or this folding in, caving to the pressure being exerted by this executive branch, even though it is not, in my view, constitutional or proper, it's a real sticking point to try to rally people around, because as you said, people got bills to pay. People have work to do in the federal government and out.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (19:14)
Mm-hmm. Great.

Karen Lupton (19:19)
How do you, like I see my role, you you spoke about us being representatives, have kind of a, people tend to answer our emails and our phone calls a little more readily than, you know, John Smith's phone calls, but ⁓ what do you see our role as when these ⁓ structures are kind of caving in?

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (19:46)
think it's two parts. I sometimes I think there are instances where we have, ⁓ you know, a true role as state legislators to, you know, whether it's passing laws or stopping laws, you know, you and I both serve in the minority party. So, ⁓ you know, we have to, in order to stop something harmful, we have to, ⁓ we have to get some Republican colleagues on our side, and that's not so easy.

But we've certainly in the context, I think that context of gender affirming care is a really good ⁓ one to bring into this conversation because it's very similar. ⁓ Executive orders that don't necessarily have teeth, except for the fact that they're being issued by the leader of the free world, you could say.

And so that alone, even without necessarily the force of law, that carries a great deal of weight. So sometimes we do have an official role as state legislators, but often our role is just to use the platform we have and the mouthpiece that we have. And I think that's what Americans are looking to us to do right now, is they are alarmed. And sometimes we don't have really any more power

Karen Lupton (21:00)
Yes.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (21:07)
We're wearing our citizen hat and we don't necessarily have more actual power than citizens, but we do have the platform that we're given as state legislators. If it's a situation where we can involve state government, yes, they will return our phone calls. They'll return our texts on the weekends even. ⁓ And so that's one of the ways we help our constituents. But often in these national conversations, it's using our platforms.

Karen Lupton (21:27)
Yes.

Yes. And it is very interesting because I'm sure you get this. I'm sure you get these kind of this contacts, these contacts and emails as well. You know, hey, please, representative help stop the Trump agenda. Please help get student loan repayment back on track. You know, all this sort of stuff that involves the federal government, not necessarily us. ⁓ So again, we go back to kind of civics with

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (21:54)
I'm sorry.

Right.

Karen Lupton (22:07)
⁓ helping people understand where we fall in the totem pole of government, in the silos of government, I should say. ⁓ But also I think one that I agree with you completely that people want to know that we see what they are seeing. They want to know that their leaders, that they're not just imagining it, that we aren't all just being cast lit.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (22:32)
Right.

Karen Lupton (22:35)
Um, that yes, this is a constitutional crisis. It's not the country's first constitutional crisis. It won't be its last, but it is make no bones about it. A constitutional crisis that I think feel like we're functioning in. And a lot of people want to know what to, what to do.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (22:57)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Lupton (23:00)
There's not a great answer to that. One of the things that I find myself doing is one, the platform to, using our platform to let people know that yes, we see what you see. Here's what we can do. Here's what we can't as legislators, you know, in our official roles, but helping to call out.

the people who have enabled this, especially in Georgia, especially Republican leadership in Georgia, I feel it's very important to tie their actions and call them to account for putting their name on the Trump administration. ⁓ Governor Kemp, Speaker ⁓ John Burns, Lieutenant Governor.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (23:48)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Lupton (23:56)
Um, Bert Jones, among other Republican leaders put their name on, we're with Trump. signed a letter as soon as he was the Republican nominee in 2024. Hey, we're behind this guy. And I would love it if we never let them forget that.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (24:15)
I agree with you 100%. And that brings to me a couple of things to mind. We did have, as I've talked to voters now that I've been back from session, in many ways, 2025 was the trans session. We spent an inordinate amount of time on bills that regulate their bodies, what healthcare they can receive, what

Karen Lupton (24:33)
Mm-hmm.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (24:45)
bathrooms they can use, what extracurricular programming they can participate in, ⁓ all of these issues and more. I, early on, ⁓ this started in our chamber with speeches from the well about ⁓ protecting women and girls. And ⁓ I had some thoughts and some feelings about that.

Karen Lupton (25:07)
Lord

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (25:15)
very early on. And one of the main ones for me was every single one of you supported a sexual abuser. I mean, certainly, certainly at the time, you know, the leaders you named, all of them had a choice to to not support the president. And so you did not find that to be disqualifying for leadership. And so you have no credibility, at least in my view.

to now say that you are motivated by a desire to protect women and girls, to protect our physical safety, to protect our ability to play sports, enjoy extracurricular programming, whatever it may be. So that was for me just a glaring, glaring issue this session. Thank you, thank you. That was again, just one of those, really can't sit here.

Karen Lupton (26:04)
You made a great well speech about those points.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (26:11)
and just listen to this anymore. And then the other issue, this is sort of a, this is a big story down here on the coast. ⁓ Our own congressman, Buddy Carter, was the first person to jump into this Senate race to oppose our sitting US Senator John Ossoff. And if you know the political leanings of Chatham County and

the district I represent, there's not a lot of Buddy Carter fans in Chatham County. We do not feel that he represents our values. And I was really thinking about this recently as people talk more and more about, you know, how he's trying to ascend to a larger stage. I remember the last time he had a town hall and he, which was years ago, it was early in Trump one.

Karen Lupton (27:07)
He hasn't probably probably hasn't been showing his face a lot lately

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (27:09)
No, not,

has not since then, but he was like a lot of other Republicans, like Lindsey Graham from South Carolina, like a lot of Republicans, like Mark Rubio and Ted Cruz. He was lukewarm about Trump and trying to, and then as the winds have changed and as Trump has just devoured their party, then his view has changed. So, you know,

There may be a couple ⁓ of Republicans in Georgia who will still kind of tell the truth about this president. There aren't many. And all of those who are in leadership have understood in order to stay in leadership, I have to pretend like this is okay. I have to participate in this gaslighting. Yeah.

Karen Lupton (27:51)
No, there aren't.

It's disgusting.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (28:09)
Mm hmm, it is. Yeah.

Karen Lupton (28:11)
I'm sure that ⁓ in the chamber when we are voting, when we are in session, we rub elbows with everybody in there and we hear what they say in the anti-rooms before and after votes. And we know that quote unquote reasonable people vote for unreasonable things all the time.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (28:21)
We do.

Yeah.

of

the time. It's true.

Karen Lupton (28:39)
which makes me want to bash my head against a desk. In one way, they feel, what I'm hearing, let's discuss this as women, shall we? What I'm hearing, let's discuss this with emotional intelligence. What I'm hearing them say is like, hey, we don't have any power either. We're not the three people who decide what goes on in this state.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (28:52)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Karen Lupton (29:07)
So we're just as helpless as you. ⁓ shucks. We got to vote for this racist bill. ⁓ because Mr. Speaker, Mr. Governor, Mr. Lieutenant Governor are telling us to. I feel, and my response is you're on the inside. You're the only people who can tell these people that you don't appreciate their leadership and that you will leave them if they don't shape up. And yet there isn't that pushback.

even though they know it's ridiculous.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (29:41)
Yeah, that's absolutely true. And you know, we, yeah, we did just come through, we did just come through a presidential election. And so we know there were a couple of people who at least early on supported other people in the primary. And so like we, know, you know, that it's one of the challenges of this job is like, we sit right next to our Republican colleagues and we,

Karen Lupton (29:44)
discouraging.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (30:08)
We get, you have that lovely I'll see, but I'm kind of, I'm kind of sandwiched. And so, you know, there are times where it's just like, I know you, I spend a lot of time with you. I know I've met your spouse and your kids and it's just so hard to square that because at the end of the day, the president is,

Karen Lupton (30:11)
I love my seat.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (30:35)
an adjudicated sexual abuser who has, you know, said unspeakable things about women, certainly, but any number of groups. And, you know, we serve with folks who we know that's not truly their values. ⁓ But at the same time, we also see the support and we see the votes on the board and we see the, you know, smiling in the pictures with the president. I mean, that was something for me that early this session

You when you and I served our first biennium under the Biden administration. And so for me, there was just something really kind of triggering this session to just see the smiling, here I am with the president pictures. And so that's why when the well speech is about we're doing all this for the women and the girls, when that started, I was like, no, this is, I can put up with a lot, but not this, yeah.

Karen Lupton (31:33)
Yeah, blatant, yeah, it really is very, very interesting. And to one of your earlier points, how that gets interpreted in the media. ⁓ And I've said it once and I'll say it many times, when I get to speak to people, I don't know if you remember, I think it was our 20th,

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (31:49)
Yeah.

Karen Lupton (32:03)
I think it was 2022. we had an anti-trans. Yeah. We had an anti-trans bill that year that we voted on big, you know, ⁓ all over the front page. But one of the most exciting votes that we had that year, like exciting actually, like, Ooh, I don't know how this is going to turn out was about truck weights. I don't know if you remember the truck weight bill. Remember? Nobody heard about the truck weight bill. Nobody knew that that bill.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (32:14)
Yes.

Yes, I remember the truck weights, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Karen Lupton (32:32)
Nobody understood that that was actually one vote that we took that session that had consequences around the state that did not break down along party lines. And that was actually kind of in the balance. weren't sure whether what the vote was going to be when that machine was opened up. To me, that's, that's governance. That's talking to your local leaders, deciding what's best for your district and voting accordingly. That's governance.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (32:41)
Mm-hmm.

That's true.

Mm-hmm.

Karen Lupton (33:01)
as opposed to, let's all pick on this certain group of people and stand together as a party to do so, and then clothe ourselves in glory and.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (33:12)
Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

Karen Lupton (33:17)
I can't say, actually it's our podcast, I can say whatever the heck I want, the obscenities that want to roll out of my mouth at the ridiculousness that they want to parade around in when there's real business to be done.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (33:33)
Absolutely, absolutely. you know, I believe you had our leader, Carolyn Huglion, a short while ago and y'all talked a little bit about some of these issues. you know, that's been another thing we've, we have to educate folks in a lot of ways because the way that got framed was, well, why, you know, this seems simple and bipartisan. Like, why was that the hill you died on? And I said, well, let me explain to you.

Karen Lupton (33:40)
Yes!

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (34:03)
how many bills we'd had on that subject and how few people were truly affected by those bills. Now, I didn't come up here to pick on anybody. I didn't come up here to bully anybody. That's not why I do this work to get pulled into that. But we also have to explain to people that we had what?

I think six total bills, five bills that either came to our floor or could have come to our floor by day 40. And there was at least one additional one. We didn't have five bills dealing with affordable housing. We didn't have five bills to deal with women's healthcare needs, which are dire in Georgia. so, for example, the affordable housing issue to me is kind of an interesting one because

Karen Lupton (34:29)
So many bills.

Amen.

Thank you. Thank you.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (34:54)
That's becoming so pressing in Georgia that you are seeing bipartisan cooperation around that. We had some of those bills come through House Judiciary Committee this session where I was like, wait, Republicans bringing this bill? But we have Republicans representing districts where private equity owns 70 % of the single family rental market. And that's a real

That's a real problem in those areas. And so that's a real problem in Georgia that we could be working on. But we didn't have five bills on affordable housing that got that far. And so we really didn't. We didn't. got a little bit of progress made. But for every one of those bills that's designed to just kind of inflame people.

Karen Lupton (35:25)
Yes.

We had no substantive debate about such an urgent, urgent matter.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (35:48)
and pull them into, pull us all into a bad faith conversation. That's hours that legislative council spends drafting them. That's hours they spend going through committee and getting vetted. That's hours they spend getting debated on the floor. And then it all, most of that process starts all over in the other chamber. So I think that's part of our, what's been part of our challenge, but ⁓ we really have to tell people this is what's really going on.

It can't all be encapsulated in a headline or a Facebook post.

Karen Lupton (36:25)
Yes, and the more reactionary the post, the more you kind of have to take a step back and try to.

try to focus on some of the actual issues that we're facing that affect one of the things that I find fascinating about this time and going back to your op-ed and that rule of law, that's the biggest crisis that I see us facing right now. And if you want to debate about

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (36:40)
absolutely.

Karen Lupton (37:03)
You know, whether Trump's crazy, whether Elon's crazy, whether, you know, go ahead and, know, whatever. But the fact is our government needs to work. The constitutional framing needs to hold. And in the past, when we have had constitutional crisis, one of those three branches has stepped in and told the other, uh-uh, not okay.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (37:17)
Yeah.

Karen Lupton (37:32)
and the line has held. ⁓ It feels right now as if the line is really, really wobbly and almost not holding. That's the most pressing issue that I feel as an American at the moment. There are things in Georgia that definitely need tending, but when we're looking at the framework of our national government, that's the most pressing thing to me at the moment.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (37:35)
Right?

I with you. think in some ways, we can see these trend lines in our state government as well. We can see some consolidation of power in our executive branch. We had a debate over tort reform this year where the executive of our state very much flexed his muscle.

Karen Lupton (38:24)
Whew, he

threw a lot of weight around.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (38:25)
Yes,

he did. Yes, he did. so despite the fact that we are the legislative branch and it is our job to be deliberative and vet these bills. But I couldn't agree with you more that what really ⁓ concerns me these days, which is why, look, I serve in state government because I think it's underappreciated in terms of how important the work is.

You know, we do not show up on CNN very much. don't get a lot of media coverage. And so I serve as a state legislator because I think it's so important. But since we've been back from session, I have been spending more and more time thinking about these federal issues because I think they are so deeply concerning. I've got a middle schooler and a freshman in high school.

Karen Lupton (38:53)
Yes.

No, we don't.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (39:20)
We talk about these issues a lot and you don't wanna frighten your children. ⁓ But we also talk about these in pretty ⁓ frank terms and say, know, not every great civilizations, no great civilization has ever kind of lasted forever, maintained its dominance and prosperity and freedom forever. It tends to be cyclical and ⁓ you know,

democracies aren't ended by coups always, you know, in the way that we think of, you know, something quick and overwhelmingly forceful. Sometimes it's these democratic processes that we have bending just a little and then bending just a little more and then bending just a little more. And, you know, that could be how we lose our democracy.

I don't think any of us wanna see that. The great historian and professor Timothy Snyder says, don't obey in advance. I think it's worth pointing out that I'm pretty certain professor Snyder is one of the US professors who has been lured to Canada in this moment. all these threads kind of join up.

Karen Lupton (40:25)
Mmm.

OOF

Mm-hmm.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (40:45)
but it says something about academic freedom that that's happening. ⁓ But yeah, we do. Absolutely, yeah. That's absolutely a conversation. I wanna brainstorm with you about who to have on to talk about that. Yeah.

Karen Lupton (40:50)
⁓ could have a whole other conversation about that. That's very interesting.

talk about that. know.

it's ⁓ cyclical. mean, cyclical. There you go. find it. My last word will be I find it interesting. What Proverbs had to say is true that like nothing is new under the sun. It has all been done before. So when you look back less than 100 years, when you look to the Second World War and see what happened in Germany, it like the book is there. The playbook is there.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (41:21)
That's true.

Mm-hmm.

That's true. That's true.

Karen Lupton (41:31)
I'm not

sure why Republicans keep denying that it's happening when like all the steps are there and we're taking steps in the playbook.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (41:34)
Right.

Right, right. And the plays in the playbook ⁓

attack the press, hollow out the civil service and replace it with loyalists, ⁓ go after professors, crack down on academic freedom, all of those things. I mean, it really is kind of the authoritarian playbook and, know, absolutely.

Karen Lupton (41:53)
Yep, on Academic Freedom on Learn.

and demonize a group of people and then herd them all

together and try to ship them off.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (42:06)
Absolutely. Scapegoat a group of people. And I think that, you know, that's another thing to me that was very apparent during our session is that in 2025, my view at least was the trans session. 2024 was the anti-immigrant session. We had so many bills that were designed to just kind of demonize immigrants and history doesn't repeat, but it often rhymes. so, you know, the scapegoats change.

Karen Lupton (42:21)
yeah.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (42:34)
But that desire that, our problems are all because of this group, that's an old, old play in the playbook.

Karen Lupton (42:43)
Yes, surprising that people still fall for it, you know, uh, I don't know what to say. Well, representative Anne Allen, it is wonderful to talk to you. I don't think I've laid eyes on you since we left the Capitol.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (42:46)
Mm-hmm.

No,

no, probably. Well, we didn't even stay to the wee hours of the morning this year. So you've probably not seen me since about 1030 on the evening of April 4th.

Karen Lupton (43:07)
Yeah, we made tracks out of here. A whole other story, but wow, that was an interesting sine die considering that you and I have just had like three sine dies that we've lived through or served through. But I'm so grateful for you taking your time there at your home in Savannah or near Savannah to talk to us and let us know what you're feeling, experiencing on the ground in your district and that you're standing up for the rule of law and sounding the alarm.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (43:10)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Karen Lupton (43:37)
that people can hear and pay attention to what's going on and is truly important. So thank you so much for your expertise, your time, and for talking to me.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (43:47)
Thank you so much, Replupt and thank you for having me on. Thank you for all the work you put into this podcast. It's, it's such a great addition to, you know, the, platforms that we have. and you do a wonderful job hosting. So thanks for having me on and letting me talk about this this morning.

Karen Lupton (44:04)
⁓ anytime, anytime, there's plenty more to come. Plenty more to come. All right, y'all. We'll catch you next time on Georgia House Rules.

Rep. Anne Allen Westbrook (44:09)
Yes.